Medical & Dental School Admissions: Some More Research

Originally Posted by bobby190

ETA: @BRS same diff right? Think they are synonyms

Context is king. In the context you used the term 'discrimination' your post could be read in a different way. I would have used a different word to avoid any confusion.

(Interesting that we've ended up talking about word usage on the edge of a S2 discussion).

Originally Posted by chinaski

I tend to see it a different way. If they are under-performing in one section of selections, why not look at why they are under-performing, rather than focussing on this so-called "disadvantage" (ie look at the candidate, not the exam)? This stems further than just UMAT sections; the ethnic demographics of graduate entry have changed significantly also. If there are cultural differences hindering students at this stage, is it not reasonable to expect it to continue to dog them throughout their early career?

^^Agreed.

I just made a suggestion to distinguish sub sets within the asian population in the current study which could provide insight as to why there has been a dramatic decrease in NE/SE asians. Well you could look at the individual candidate aswell but that may need some other kind of study, if it can be incorporated into these kind of studies then sure why not.

The general assumption - as politically incorrect as it may be - is that language skills (both spoken and written) is what's letting those candidates down. It's common sense, I guess - I'd similarly struggle to pass an exam in another language... but then again, I'm not applying for a place in a competitive profession that demands a high level of sophisticated foreign language skills, either. To rectify said "disadvantage", I would think the onus would be on me to improve those skills, no?

I wonder if the drop is a result of either the introduction of the UMAT or interviews or both. If its mainly the UMAT that is causing such drops then that would be a cause for concern (since the link between UMAT and med school performance is so tentative).

Originally Posted by godoftoast

I wonder if the drop is a result of either the introduction of the UMAT or interviews or both. If its mainly the UMAT that is causing such drops then that would be a cause for concern (since the link between UMAT and med school performance is so tentative).

...Unless you wish to speculate beyond medical school performance. Frankly, from where I'm standing, I don't give a toss how well you did in med school, but I sure as hell care about how well you can do your job now. I've no idea whether UMAT is predictive WRT JMO performance indicators, but I'd be interested to see a correlation (or not) before it was dropped altogether (ditto, any other selection criteria you wish to name). I do wish the universities would see past their own noses on this one.

Originally Posted by chinaski

whether UMAT is predictive WRT JMO performance indicators

I'd like to see this too. UMAT was designed to evaluate certain qualities that otherwise would not have a tangible way of evaluated. Fair enough, asking people questions on a MCQ form pertaining to "understanding people", "abstract reasoning" and "critical thinking" may not be fool-proof, but to date, it's the best measure we have.

Interview behave in a similar vein. Some students look perfect on paper, till you sit them down in person. It is subjective, yes, but I think there are ways that this can be compensated for in interview grading schemes (that are in practice).

Originally Posted by chinaski

...Unless you wish to speculate beyond medical school performance. Frankly, from where I'm standing, I don't give a toss how well you did in med school, but I sure as hell care about how well you can do your job now. I've no idea whether UMAT is predictive WRT JMO performance indicators, but I'd be interested to see a correlation (or not) before it was dropped altogether

And if it were (dropped altogether), I'd still be keen to see something that is standardised & not school-based replace it - assuming undergrad entry continues. The difference in education and school results potential on offer to those who can afford private or who can get in to a selective school at age 10/11 is just way too unfair in my humble opinion to depend entirely on school marks (again).

Equally, this discussion is so far out of my scope it's not funny. I mean, who am I, newbie med student, to be talking about entry criteria. I'll be going back to the first page of Grey's now....

I've no idea whether UMAT is predictive WRT JMO performance indicators, but I'd be interested to see a correlation (or not) before it was dropped altogether (ditto, any other selection criteria you wish to name). I do wish the universities would see past their own noses on this one.

Hmm interesting thought. Im sure its not too late to do retrospective study. Do JMOs get assessed or anything?

Originally Posted by epikness

It is subjective, yes, but I think there are ways that this can be compensated for in interview grading schemes (that are in practice).

Multiple mini interviews are supposed to minimise bias, but Im not sure if there is evidence for it being better than panel or better correlate with medical school grades.

Cannot help but think now if the all correlating GPA in medical school makes you a better doctor..
How can you define a "good doctor" anyway?

Originally Posted by bobby190

Cannot help but think now if the all correlating GPA in medical school makes you a better doctor..
How can you define a "good doctor" anyway?

Well, we'll at least need them to have a good enough GPA to graduate to decide anyway. Haha.

Then again, GPA could be related to how much effort they put into mastering the subject matter. Whether they can apply it in a clinical context is a separate story.

Originally Posted by bobby190

I just made a suggestion to distinguish sub sets within the asian population in the current study which could provide insight as to why there has been a dramatic decrease in NE/SE asians. Well you could look at the individual candidate aswell but that may need some other kind of study, if it can be incorporated into these kind of studies then sure why not.

I think it'd be interesting to identify subsets within the "NE/SE asians" if possible. I can't comment for other Med Schools, but certainly at my one, a lot of the International students are from SE Asian countries. There are also students who were born in Australia and studied their entire schooling in Australia, but are of NE/SE Asian cultural background, so English (hopefully) should be fluent to them by the time they start applying for Med School. And then there are the students who were born in NE/SE Asian countries, and then immigrated to Australia in their childhood / teenage years. I think these factors may have an influence on one's ability to do certain parts of the UMAT and/or the Interview...