Questions about the validity of the UMAT

Originally Posted by Mana

Let's just assume a hypothetical scenario, where we did replace the UMAT with a lottery system. Then instead of people complaining that they got low UMAT scores, we would have people complaining that they got unlucky with the lottery. How is this any better??

It doesnt insult someones intelligence.

I fail to accept the reliability of an exam that claims to test "logical reasoning" or "understanding of people" in which, applicants year in year out improve from scores of mid 40's to high 40's (30 to 100%tiles).

I don't see how you can improve these skills in such a small time period. This in itself should question the purpose and accuracy of the test.

Just looking at some of the threads there are medical students who cannot spell "definitely" and do not seem to know the difference between "advice" and "advise".

In this regard I feel GAMSAT does a better job. Having more questions 75 in section 1 reduces the luck element. The written section ensure future doctors develop basic writing skills. A 50% weighting on the science section rewards knowledge.

A hard working doctor with book smarts is less likely to kill a patient imo.

lol mana i agrees with you. i dont suggest the lottery system. im merely comparing it to a lotery system cos in ze umat every mark can make the difference can it not? with a bitta luck u get that mark or if the gods arnt on ya side you fail.

in a ideal world we'd go towards graduate entry where Dr. A's so called ppl who wanna do med for the marks might be culled. but anyway i dont mind if ppl wanna do it for marks - its good to be passionate yes but that doesnt really make u a good doc

im very passionate about aviation - that doesnt make me a good piolot. with a will to suceed and proven results i dont see how those ppl will not make very good docs eh

Originally Posted by SueYu

i wont be surprised if the umat gets canned in the near future eh now even the unis i thinks are questioning the effectiveness of such a useless tests. umat is as much luck as it is a measure of ability n workin under pressure and all that jazz

I believe Dr's work under pressure so according to your analysis, its worth doing if only for that. Also, as the others no doubt have mentioned, its impossible for Universities to interview the thousands of candidates without the UMAT, otherwise the selection criteria would be purely academic (this is pretty unfair in itself). UMAT is a great way of cutting through the number candidates, if the Unis thought that UMAT was useless, then they wouldn't be using now would they?

I don't believe UMAT will be canned any time soon to be honest...and your "lottery" suggestion is just asinine.

Of course universities are questioning the effectiveness of the UMAT. JCU, in not having it as a criterion, has effectively made it clear that it is not an effective selector - according to them. However, the other universities are yet to follow suit, despite JCU's selection criteria being UMAT free for some time now. To remove the UMAT, the universities clearly need another way to select applicants, and it's simply non-existent at the moment.

I agree about the UMAT being a stupid test that's probably completely irrelevant to the medical profession - it certainly is from my experience in the field so far. However, like people have pointed out, unis simply needed more criteria to narrow down the number of applicants. There is one thing I like about the UMAT, though, and that is that it balances the field a little bit for public vs. private school kids, because we know that the private schoolers are a lot more likely to get 99+, so the purely academic system is, in a way, a little more biased than the UMAT (I doubt a public school person would be so poor as to not be able to afford the registration fees of the UMAT, but there certainly are people who can't afford private schooling).

Originally Posted by Mana

Careful here. Attack the comment, not the person.

haha sorry miss, i was only challenging your attitude

Originally Posted by talkameow

I call troll with poor internet/text grammar.

There has to be some additional criteria for medicine, and it just happens to be the UMAT. You can't do anything about it, so just deal with it and stop complaining.

I agree. Everyone is in the same boat. No matter what the universities do someone will complain that its unfair. It will always be there. You can't change that.

Originally Posted by SueYu

lol mana i agrees with you. i dont suggest the lottery system. im merely comparing it to a lotery system cos in ze umat every mark can make the difference can it not? with a bitta luck u get that mark or if the gods arnt on ya side you fail.

There's going to be some luck involved with any system...This point is just null. Interview marks could be influenced by the interviewer's mood too, just an example there.

Originally Posted by Mana

Of course universities are questioning the effectiveness of the UMAT. JCU, in not having it as a criterion, has effectively made it clear that it is not an effective selector - according to them. However, the other universities are yet to follow suit, despite JCU's selection criteria being UMAT free for some time now. To remove the UMAT, the universities clearly need another way to select applicants, and it's simply non-existent at the moment.

Griffith uni + a few others (I think adelaide is involved too) is doing a study on personality traits + success in the MBBS. We were asked to participate in it when we went to our interviews. Restructuring the UMAT isn't an easy task. Personally I love S3

Originally Posted by ctu_max

In umat there are right and wrong answers. It does take comprehension and critical reasoning skills to answer questions in s1 and s2. It does take visual logic skills in section 3. Do these skills make a good doctor and is umat the best way of testing them? probably not but it is a lot more than luck.


I agree with Dr.A wait until AFTER you get 99+ to advocate a year12 results+ lottery system.

My point is that a high majority of applicants guess about 5-10questions at the end of section 1. The first section is out of 40 something? This means that 1 question has to be worth more than 1 mark. In UMAT 1 mark can be the difference between getting in and not getting in (or an interview).

Consider this:

Person A

Has a stab a the last 6 questions
gets 4 correct.

Person B:
Guesses last 6
gets 1 correct.

Even if person B had got more correct out of those he/she attempted they might get a lower score than person A due to a lack of luck. Person A gets into med school - thank you probablility and multiple choice exams.


Even if they use the IRC method and 2 people guess the same amount of questions correct the person who guesses the question that most people get wrong will come out on top.